Good afternoon. Welcome to PCI's Production Workshop Series. Today's workshop is Acceptability of Appearance Following the Process. This workshop is sponsored by Architectural Precast Committee. My name is Nicole Clow, Marketing Coordinator at PCI, and I will be your moderator for this session. Before I turn the controls over to your presenters for today, I have a few instructory items to note. All attendee lines are muted. The GoToWebinar Toolbox has an area for you to raise your hand. If you raise your hand, you will receive a private chat message from me. If you have a question, please type it into the questions pane. Also, a pop-up survey will appear after the webinar ends. Earlier today, we sent a reminder email to all registered attendees that included a handout of today's presentation. That handout for this webinar can also be found in the handout section of your webinar pane. If you cannot download the handout, please email PCI Marketing at marketing at pci.org. Today's presentation will be recorded and uploaded to the PCI eLearning Center. PCI is a registered provider of AIA-CS, but today's presentation does not contain content that has been endorsed by AIA. Today's presentation is non-CEU. To start off the presentation, I would like to introduce Brad Williams, Architectural Precast Committee Chair. Hi, welcome. We appreciate you joining with us today. As we go through this, a special thanks to Randy Wilson, who's the Director of Architectural Precast Systems, who puts all this together, with Nicole Plow, who's the PCI Marketing Coordinator. We'd also like to pitch the convention and hope you attend our committee meeting at 8 a.m., 8 a.m. to 9.30 on Wednesday of the committee. We're real excited about this presentation today. It's really an important part of architectural precast and its susceptibility appearance following the process. For our presenters, we have Rob Bristworm, who's the Plant Manager at International Concrete Products, and Scott Davis, who's Operation Manager for Enterprise Precast. They have a lot of great experience in the precast industry, and I think you're going to find today's presentation a great one to be involved with. We also have other workshops coming up in the future, one each month. Workshop 6 will also be about acceptance following the process, followed by Workshop 7, samples and mock-ups. 8 will be remedial actions and methods and costs, and 9, internal and external communications. All of these are very important to the acceptance of appearance for precast concrete. If you would like to see some of our past workshops, they're at www.pci.org. It's shown there, and this is where these will be recorded also afterwards. Please use those and reach out to those and help educate your plants and your companies on what we're talking about on architectural precast. With that, we'll turn it over to Randy. Randy, please continue with the agenda. Awesome. Thanks, Brad. I appreciate everybody showing up today. This is a very, very good topic, and we're going to jump right into it, but just a little bit of housekeeping. The production management workshop used to be a live production management workshop where people would get together for 2 or 3 days at a location to be named and actually be able to go to a plant and talk and build relationships between plant managers across the country. Because of COVID, we decided to put these on as a virtual presentation. That allows us to continue the dialogue with our plant managers across the country. It's sad that we can't get face-to-face and have a cold beer, but that's what convention's for, right? Today, we're going to definitely go through our PCA antitrust policy. We're also going to have the speakers for about 40 minutes. They're going to have a good Q&A for about 15 plus or minus minutes. If you have a question as we go through this, please go to the chat box and send a direct question to me. I'll be monitoring the chat box as the program evolves. I'll be writing down some notes and also being prepared to give the speakers some Q&A. For all of you out there who really know these speakers well, now is your time to get them live and in person and give them some zinger questions. Hopefully, we can put them on the spot. We will be following the PCA antitrust policy and code of conduct policy. Most people know exactly what that is. This is not a presentation where we'll be talking about any type of pricing or any type of collusion. We're just sharing ideas on the best way of communicating to our customers about the setting expectations for appearances of architectural precast concrete. Since this is the first episode of a mini series of four series on the topic, I wanted to set the table a little bit for what we're going to be talking about for the next four months. The most frequent question I get as the director of architectural systems at PCI is centered around acceptability of appearance. The person or the inquirer, I have to call them, who would contact me about a question about acceptability of appearance. First thing I do is I go to our manuals. The three manuals that typically can answer the question for the customer is going to be in the 116, 117, and the 122 manuals. Most of you all know that I've sold precast for many years, 15 plus years working for a precast producer. So I can safely say that all problems in a precast plant usually start with, guess who, sales. So hopefully you all are laughing and smiling and agreeing with me and shaking your head yes. So I say this not tongue in cheek, I think it really is a reality. When it comes to acceptability of appearance, making certain that your salespeople are totally in line with what your capabilities are on each individual project as it comes across the sales estimators desk, that they get together with QC and with the plant to make certain that the samples that they're showing can be manufactured consistency for that specific job. And that statement right there sets the tone for the entire series. So when you dive into the 116 manual, most everybody's seen these documents. The left-hand column on the page is the standard language. That's the language that, you know, the ANSI standards, the building code type standard language. That's a mandatory language. I like to call that the after the problem, how to evaluate a project, right, what should have been done. On the right-hand side is the commentary. That's more of the best practices. That supports that standard language. So for those who read these manuals and kind of try to understand the language, that's where it's at. So when you're looking at setting up a process for your own plant, this is the place to start. In 116, they also have an appendix A for finishes. This lists the different types of finishes an architect can specify from commercial grade, standard grade, grade A, grade B, et cetera. So this is something that you want to incorporate into your process. When you move over to 117, the architectural manual, or the architectural QC manual, you still have the section 2.10, or 210, which is acceptability of appearance. But you also have appendix C, which goes through the finish sample process. Again, another tool to use to put your process together. And the final piece of information from PCI that I refer to a lot when I talk to our customers who call about an inquiry is going to the architectural blue book or the architectural manual, which is the M&L 122. When you start looking at uniformity of appearance and you start looking at development of samples, chapter 3, section 3.2 is the place you want to go. And so now everyone's saying, shut up, and I thought we were going to talk to some real producers and not a PCI guy. Summarize this for me. This is the summary. The process that you implement in your plant should include these items as support of, as PCI supports and recommends. 12 by 12 samples, followed by 4 by 4 samples, followed by range samples, and then either a mock-up and or actual production pieces. So that's the process that is ideal for all architectural precast projects. So the goal of this series is to encourage each producer to develop a sampling process, your own internal process to make sure that you've done everything you possibly can at the front end of the job, quote, unquote, the sales side to make damn sure that you have set realistic expectations with the customer and they know what you're going to deliver. And, you know, your plant can deliver it every time. So following PCI's best practices, which is written in those manuals, gain written approval for each one of your samples as the process goes. But there's always that disclaimer, right? Every project is different. Every customer is different. I like to give the example, if you're using a local mix that you've done 10 projects with, maybe you don't need to go through the entire range sample process. You can just go look at some existing projects. But when you start looking at some unique mixes, especially unique mixes to you and your plant, it's very good to make sure that you get a written sign off on every one of those steps of the process. So the outcome of this series hopefully will be that you'll increase designer involvement. When you're engaging in the designer early on with 12 by 12 samples, that you're always going to get their collaborative effort. They're going to understand your limitations, and that can reduce conflict down the road and ensure customer satisfaction. So that's kind of the preface to the program. And I like to give that insight of what I face on a daily basis and how I handle it, which is to refer back to the manuals. And now we'll get to go to the fun part of the presentation. As I know, Rob and Scott are excited about expressing all their views on this subject. So for those who don't know Rob, Rob is a plant manager at International Concrete in Germantown, Wisconsin. He has almost 25 years experience working for a precast producer, and he's he worked his way up from the bottom. And he's got the bloody knuckles and scars to prove it, and also the plant manager attitude to go with it. So he's he's worked at a family owned business there in Germantown for for all those years. The plant is an AA certified plant, and I've seen a lot of their work, and they do a lot of work that would be more of an ACAB category because that's what that's what architects ask for sometimes. So so we're thankful to have Rob here today. And I was just going to start off by asking Rob, give us those. Tell us the good, bad and ugly of working for a family owned business for 25 years. There's definitely more good than bad. I mean, it's, you know, hang out with your family on a daily basis and converse with them is definitely great. There's definitely some some challenges. It's difficult to run the holiday sometimes when work gets involved. But other than that, it's good. It's been a very, very great experience for me. And as part of being in the precast industry, I mean, I just really, really love how, you know, every day is a little different. There's new challenges to overcome. Some days definitely I enjoy more than others, but always kind of keeps you thinking, keeps you on your toes. But what I what I enjoy the most, I guess, would be, you know, seeing the end result of some of the some of the amazing projects that we we've been a part of. And just knowing that all the hard work that we've put into it to make them happen is is really great to see. Slide. This is this is one of them in particular. So this one is the University of Chicago residence hall. So this is a really challenging job from a, I'd say, a forming and stamp and storing standpoint. As you can see there, there really wasn't a flat surface on the job, which made handling and storing the panels, you know, quite difficult. We had special made lifting brackets and concrete bunks used just to make the finishing process both safe and efficient. And then with the with the spine of those columns twisting through the panels, our mold shop, we had to use a few methods that were that were definitely new to us at the time. And that's kind of where the whole sampling process was was really key for us. Each step of the process kind of presented some new hurdles as the pieces got larger. So as we went through this, it allowed us to try out a few new things and kind of come up with a system that would work for us on a much larger scale. And the end result was just a beautiful project that was a TCI Design Award winner in, I believe, 2018. Slide. This is the Mead Witter School of Music located on the University of Wisconsin campus in Madison. Kind of like the University of Chicago, you know, those sloping vertical panels presented some similar challenges for both the mold building and storage. In addition to those hurdles, having half the panel using a ribbed form liner and the other half a smooth surface for us to get a consistent finish on there was a little tricky. But by going through the sampling process, as well as producing the larger scale performance mockup, we were able to get a lot of the bugs worked out prior to casting the production panels, which in the end saved us a lot of time and money on the back end. Those are those are very challenging projects. I can tell why why you would have to go through that mockup process to kind of work out those those intricacies. So, thanks, Rob. Our next speaker is Scott Davis. Scott's the Operation Manager of Enterprise Precast in Corsicana, Texas, where it's hot year round and dry. So, Scott's got about 23 years experience servicing the precast industry. He's been at several different plants around the country. Again, he's busted his knuckles out in the plant. So, he's definitely a hands-on type of a guy. And that picture is really, really old because nobody been in the precast industry for 23 years looks that young and fresh. So, a little bit about Enterprise. Enterprise has two plants, one in Omaha, Nebraska, one in Corsicana, Texas. It's a privately owned organization. They also are an AA architectural precast producer. They produce carbon cast panels, insulated load-bearing panels, and pre-stressed wall panels. They've done a lot of fantastic work in both markets, you know, the Kansas City and Omaha markets, which you guys, who's ever going to the convention is going to be able to see a lot of enterprises work from that plant. And they've really made a name for themselves down in Texas with some of the work that they've done. So, with that, Scott, I just was going to ask you, did precast producers just drag you around the country, or did you chase them around the country? I can't figure that out. I would say I was chased. You would say that. That's how it goes sometimes. But, no, I've found my home here in Texas, and I've been here for almost 10 years now, and really love it here. Yeah, well, tell us about a couple of these projects. So, the first one is Ranger Stadium here in Texas. I wanted to highlight this one because we actually just were walking through, different finishes were selected on this project originally, and walking through the plant with the architect, who you can see there on the left, just snatched a sample off of our wall and said, what's this? I wanted on my building, and it was something we had not produced on a large scale and really had not intended to. So, it was an interesting selection. We spent a lot of time working with him on this. We made over 20 mock-up panels to make sure that we had the expectations set clearly up front. And, you know, it ended up working out well. It was two-color, three-finish panels that are 15 foot by 45 foot insulated wall panels. So, they were big. The next one is 36 Penn, which I wanted to show because it was actually produced out of both of our architectural plants, and that can present some challenges, I'm sure you're aware. And so, the mock-up process was very important, and making sure that mixes were the same from plant to plant, and getting a high quality product at the end was very important, and it did came out. Well, excellent. Well, thanks for sharing those. Let's get right into some questions to get things started here that we've kind of discussed to help discuss what processes you all follow. And the first question I'll pitch to Rob is, what's Ural's plant's sample creation and approval process there at International? Well, we start out by, we'll send the architect a sample board of six of our standard mixes, which range in color from, you know, whites to buffs to grays, just to kind of get the conversation started, offer a few ideas, and see where it goes from there. Now, if they're looking for something completely different than that, that's when we'll kind of steer them towards PCI's color and texture guide, just to give them a few more options and help them zero in on what they're exactly looking for. Once we kind of have that clear direction from the architect, then we'll start by making our 12 by 12s. Typically we'll make, you know, maybe two to three slightly different batches, just to give ourselves a few different options and maybe, you know, see which one's going to flow for us, which mix is going to work out best. Once we have something that we think that they're going to like, then we'll submit that for review. Now, sometimes, you know, you get lucky and you nail it on the first time and they like what we've submitted and they'll approve it, but more often they're going to give us some feedback, you know, we'll make a few adjustments until one does get approved. This can be, you know, one or two more sets. Some of the more difficult jobs that can be, you know, you're looking at 10, 15 sample before one selected. So like you said earlier, each job and each architect is just a little different. So then once we have the 12 by 12 nailed down from there, we'll move into our 4 by 4 stage. And at this time for us, we like to incorporate some of the key features into the form, you know, whether it's brick or form liner, reveals, projections, whatever, anything that, you know, will be unique to this project. We feel that this is, you know, not only going to give the architect a better representation of what they can expect on a production panel, but it kind of also allows us that opportunity to dial in our forming and casting techniques for that particular job. Once we have that, then we'll go ahead and we'll cast those three range samples, give them each just a real slightly different finish for the final sign off. And then, you know, once those samples are approved, then we're released to roll into production. Excellent. What's about you, Scott, is how does that similar or different than what you guys do at Enterprise? Yeah. No, very similar. We just take our time making sure that we are providing a finish that can, you know, replicate it on a day-to-day basis. And so, very similar process. So, do you guys, Scott, do you guys require, you know, sign off from the architect or construction manager on every step of the process? Absolutely. Yeah. We submit forms along with our, all of our samples along the process and required sign off. Absolutely. Excellent. Yeah. I've always found that it's a hard question to ask. Here's a sharpie, sign my sample, but it's a very critical, critical step. You guys agree? All right. The second question we have, and we'll let Scott grab this one first, it's how do you manage your customers' expectations when you're sampling? So, you know, we begin with education, you know, because we're the experts, architects and owners are relying on us to meet expectations that sometimes aren't very realistic. Generally architects are pretty understanding and knowledgeable about natural products that they're specifying, but, you know, when you get one that's not, we sit them down and talk to them through the color options, explaining the process, the basics, you know, of natural variation, white versus gray cement, then we'll go into specifics of depth of finish to aggregate size, aggregate color to concrete paste color, porous aggregate with specific finishes and how all those can affect the final product. And that's, that's the start, you know, rarely you can get an architect that's insistent on a color that you're saying you cannot consistently, and then, you know, right. Then then once we move into full size mockups and four by fours, then it really gives us a chance to talk to them about factory batch versus lab-created mixes and vibration techniques. Challenges with specific shapes and designs, you know, knife edges on cold joints, radius panels, those lines. So it's really just all about education, upfront education. Gotcha. And so what about you, Rob, how do you guys, how do you manage your customers' expectations through the process? We're very similar to what Scott said. I think a big thing for us is just to have those conversations with the architect upfront, just to kind of discuss what their expectations are from us, kind of as well as, you know, what can we realistically provide them on a day-to-day basis from panel to panel. I think as long as we're honest and upfront about what can be done, we get everybody on the same page early on, you know, hopefully we can avoid any of the difficult conversations that might happen after the fact once the panels are up in the building. So I think that keeping that open line of communication, being honest, but what's realistic and going from there, I think that that paves the way for what can be done. Just kind of also, like Scott said, to let them know this is a natural material, this isn't paint. So there is going to be some, you know, color and texture variations, which, you know, why the range samples come in so handy at that particular point. Gotcha. So kind of going to the next one on that same topic, Rob, is how do you respond to your customer who doesn't see the importance of a larger range samples or larger mock-up samples? They're like, nope, we got the 12 by 12, looks good, I've done my job. How do you guys make your job, make the panels and make it look like paint? How do you say, nope, nope, we want to do something different, we want to make sure it's right here. Well, the first thing we kind of do is we let them know that per our QSM and PCI certification, we're required to have that signed off four by four. So when it comes to four by fours, at least we really don't get much pushback on that. As far as a range samples, like I said, we explained that, you know, this is that natural material, not paint. So there is going to be those color and texture variations, which is why that is so important. It's going to allow them to see those variations upfront, kind of be part of the process, determine what that acceptable range is, so that there aren't any surprises once there's panels up on the building and there is those slight variations between something there. One thing we've also done too, in a push for some larger samples as a way to kind of point out what some potential issues could be, one, for instance, was on the University of Chicago product shown earlier. The design team really wanted those top miters on there to kind of come to a knife edge, which we all know was going to be a major issue. So what we pushed for was adding a half inch flat kind of along that edge. They really didn't want to go away from their design. So kind of what we decided on was, you know, we'd go the extra step, we'd make two large mockups. We made one the way they wanted with the knife edge, and then we made one the way we suggested with the half inch flat. The results were, you know, the one that they, their way was kind of a jagged edge, had a lot of chips in it, while the one our way resulted in a very, you know, clean, crisp line. So finally, after seeing the final results, they definitely agreed that our way was the better option. So, you know, had we not gone that extra step of making those larger mockups, we really could have opened ourselves up to a lot of issues down the road. So this was just, you know, one instance where, you know, a larger mockup, yeah, they can be a pain, especially when you're busy and other stuff's going on. But it was definitely well worth it for us to put in that extra work up front to save ourselves a lot of headaches down the line. You didn't have to send anybody out there to knock those edges off, that they just happened to happen, just like we said they would. That's awesome. So, you know, I'll let you expand on that, Scott. Well, we tend to lean on previous experience, right? So if someone's asking you not to send mockups or 4x4s, it's typically the CM or GC, and they tend to respond better to horror stories. So, real or imagined, you can really let them know what they're in for if they don't allow the process. Not to mention, I mean, the spec requires it, I mean, like Rob said, so if you send them a letter, that'll typically get them on their toes. That's good. So we've got a couple of questions, you know, specifically about this topic, this subtopic, I guess. One is, when you make range samples, what do you do to vary the final appearance? Is it something in the mix, something in the finish? What is it that you do to try to get that natural range to demonstrate realistic expectations? For us at International Concrete, we'll just put a little slight little finish on the final wash or sandblast, whatever it's going to be. We'll create everything, all the pieces the same, all batches will be the same, it's just going to be at that final finishing phase. We'll just get slightly different just to kind of give our guys in the finishing area, you know, it's going to give them a little leeway. Each guy is going to be slightly different, and each day might be slightly different from a weekend versus middle of the week, stuff like that. So ours is all done on the finishing end. How about you, Scott? You guys do the same? We make sure they're all cast out of different batches. First of all, so that any of the natural variation that you're going to see from batch to batch is there and present. Just like Rob, we tend to lean on finish to create that variation. Gotcha. What do you guys find about casting on a Monday, stripping on a Tuesday versus casting on a Friday and stripping on a Monday? Do you find you guys have to make sure you strip on Saturday to make sure the product stays in the bed the same duration, or does that affect your production processes? It really just depends on the finish. Rarely an issue there in our plant. Yeah, the only time we'll see differences, you know, maybe if it's a water wash panel, a lot of times if it's on a Friday, we'll strip that on a Saturday just to keep that consistent. But everything else is after that, your sandblast, we really haven't noticed too much of an issue there. Okay. And then another question was, how do you account for impact of age and wear on setting the customer up that, I envisioned this question a couple of different ways, but setting the customer up for weathering or aging of the product, especially in the early in the sampling process? Yeah, we kind of, yeah, just let them know, you know, especially with colored panels or colored mock-ups that there takes time for the color to come out, the moisture, the dirt, the stuff in the atmosphere is going to make some changes there. So it's kind of, it's like Scott said, the kind of the education of what you need to do up front, just explaining all the possibilities that can happen. They will happen. Yeah, I've, I always, in my past life, I looked at more of the detailing where the horizontal and vertical reveals may be, or how the form liner orientation would be, or the window mullions lined up and you get runoff. And I've seen projects from the, you know, the 80s, 70s and 80s and early 90s that you could just see where the runoff was not considered when they tried to line up the reveal patterns with the windows or other precast features. So parts of the panels are black because of the runoff and others look like they were produced last week. So to move on, I got some more questions, but let's go ahead and move on to get this last question in before we go back to the open forum here. Interior finishes. This is, I threw this question in there because it's high on my list of things to include in future publications through PCI and really accentuate it. So I'll ask you guys, how and when do you sample the interior finishes of architectural precast? So it depends on what the finish is, but if it's going to be a, an actual architecturally finished back, we will submit that right at the, right at the very start with our one by ones, finish the back of that one by one, get that expectation out there right away. And then move on through the process, making sure that it's included in, in the mock-ups and four by fours. If it's a gray to be painted or whatever other float finish, whatever may be on the back, we make sure to include that at the four by four phase, we wouldn't try to put gray back on the one by one, but once we get to the four by four, we always include the finished back surface. So it's going to match what's actually on the project. You guys do the same, Rob? For the most part, we really don't do much with the one by ones as far as the back finish there. Usually, if any, any face finish on there, that'll be, we'll go through our whole standard sample process with the one by ones, four by fours through there. Now, if they're looking for the backside finish, usually we'll just do that at our four by four stage. Yeah, I know, again, I might go back to my past life. That's what happens when you get older. We had a checklist and we had a, and when I first started selling an estimating precast, I'm like, God, this is a stupid box, interior finish. Why do I got to check that box and seek, you know, seek through the specs for it. But it's extremely important that that, that is covered up front with, in a, in a sales consultation with the, with the architect, especially if it's going to be exposed. I've seen some, some situations to where, you know, you have inconsistent back, back finish colors, even though the texture's fine, but somebody missed the fact that it was going to be exposed, not painted, which forced a producer to pay to have the entire interior of a structure, like, like a gym, not the project you see on the screen, but like a gym that said that they had to come back and paint that, that surface to make it color, color uniform because somebody missed that. So just kind of a quote unquote word of, word of wisdom from us old folks. So with that, let's just go ahead and head on to the Q&A. We got quite a few questions, which I'm very pleased with, so I appreciate all the participation today. One of the questions are, when Rob, you said that you persuaded the design team to go with a flat edge instead of a knife edge to hide a cold joint, did you mean a half inch quirk miter or something, something else? Yeah, it's just a half, it wasn't on a, it wasn't on a cold joint. It was actually the, the tops of those, those columns were sloped and, and mitered to fit over the front of the spandrels. They wanted that bottom of that miter to be a knife edge on there, down to a point, which that's where all the chipping was to come in. So we just bumped that out to give a half inch flat, just to allow a little more stability to where that knife edge would have been. So just throw it out to either one of you, have you, have you ever ran into a situation where an architect was adamant about something and even then you make it and it was perfect and you're like, gosh, I know we can't do that every single day. So that's the conflict, I think that's where the rubber meets the road. How do you all handle that kind of conflict in your, in your plants? I'll go with you first, Scott. You're welcome. I don't know that we've ever actually had that happen here, but, you know, if you're quite confident that you're not going to be able to produce it on a day-to-day basis, you better try it again and make sure, I think I would say. But no, we haven't, we haven't actually had that issue here. Yeah, I can't say we've, we've experienced that really either, other than, like I said, this instance here where we kind of had to go those extra steps just because it was something that we knew that we, we weren't going to be able to produce that on a day in and day out basis. And we knew what the end result was going to be. So we kind of stuck to our guns, you know, we were honest, honest with them of what, what we could produce. And if it's something we don't feel we can do, we let them know that we just, we can't do it. So we'll, we'll offer up different solutions of what we, what we feel is best. But like I said, it just got to be open and honest with them. And document, document, right? Yep. Another, another good question. What size samples do you guys make in small mixers versus run through your batch plant mixer? It's kind of, I guess I'm asking what's, what's the maximum size you would, you would make for a sample before you add an actual quote unquote production piece? We do all our 12 by 12s through a small, small little barrel mixer, and then as far as everything's run through the, through the batch plant. Yeah. You know, if we needed a two foot by two foot sample, just because of the finish type where you really needed a bigger sample rather than a one by one, we would make that out of our sample mixer. But once we're beyond those initial samples, it's always out of the batch plant. You know, that's, that's been my experience. It's always best to get it out of the batch plant, even though it might be more costly. And you got to get aggregate in, you got to get all the ingredients in, but it pays dividends in the end. So, another question is, what are your challenges to get architects to the plant? I'm assuming you have a resistant architect. Why do I got to drive two hours or four hours or, you know, and come to your plant and spend a day of billable hours just to look at a sample? What, um, have you guys had some resistance in the past and what kind of tricks have you used to get them there? Um, I guess I have had some resistance in the past, but typically they're fairly excited to come see the process. But don't recall really being successful with forcing that, but typically they're fairly excited to come see. Yeah, I agree. Same with us. We, they're definitely always excited to come through, see the plant. We have kind of an architect's garden of all our, all of our old 4x4s, which they love to see that, see all the different finishes and what our capabilities are. But if we do have an architect that's kind of reluctant, I mean, we're not, we'll take it to them, I guess, if that's what it takes to get it signed off and get us into production. Boy, the questions are flying in, guys. So, acceptability of cracks in wall panels, acceptability of shadow and coarse aggregate on a smooth trowel surface and discoloration of gray concrete. Pick any one of those. I mean, how do you, of all those different things that you could, you could face when somebody comes and starts to look at, I'm looking, I'm thinking more of a finished, finished panel as a, comparing to the mock-up. How do you, how do you handle those types of discussions? Well, I would hope you're designing crack-free pre-casting and hanging crack panels. With the topic of shadowing from aggregate on the back of your panel, you know, that's, that's all in the mock-up phase. You should be showing that, what your finish actually looks like in your mock-up and in your 4x4s. Yeah, I agree. That's, that's all, that's kind of the point of it all is to, to show what your capabilities are and, you know, that's, that's setting the expectations for yourself. So, you're showing them what, what you're, you're holding your standards to. So, you need to, you know, kind of make sure that you're following through on, on your actual production panels as well. All right. Here's a, here's a really good one. I think anyway. Since the daylight varies during the day when it is sunny, what time is better to observe the panel? Morning, afternoon, direct sunlight? What, I got some funny jokes about that, but I'll let you guys answer. What's the best time from daylighting perspective to look at samples and get your sample approvals? Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead, Scott. I would just say you should follow the way you wanted to review the panels on the, on the project, which is, you know, written out in M&L 122, full sun, no cross sun, 20 feet away. And that's what you would want and oriented vertically, just like they're going to be on the building. Yeah, we're the same. We'll position it so you get that direct, direct sunlight on there. So whatever way, if it's in the morning, it's facing one way. If it's in the afternoon, it's facing the other, but definitely taking on that direct sunlight. Yeah, that's what we used to do. We used to just, you know, when is the customer coming? And that's where we'd put the panel. They're coming in the morning, we'd be facing one way and in the plants for the, and then we'd have a, we'd draw a line in the dirt, 35 feet away and tell them that's 20 feet. And we had a special tape measure that was 35 feet, but it said 20 feet on it. So we get, that way we would make certain that we've staged our plant. When somebody came and looked at the panels, that the panels were being viewed in the most operable light for that time of day and that specific project. But I, again, we had a, you know, quote unquote horror stories. We got the panels in racks and the racks are only, you know, wide enough for a my jack or a straddle crane to go through. You can't get 20 foot back. That, that tends to be the kiss of death, especially for some, from some tricky mixes. So one recommendation of an internal plant process would be, let's make sure we have an area people can look at panels, whether it be, you know, morning, noon or night. A question here is, how do you handle the streaking on the back side of the panels with the architect? And my, my assumption of that question is that, you know, you're going to have some panels that will be exposed, like in a gymnasium. And then you have other panels that will be, that'll be, you know, not exposed. So how would you guys handle it in either one of those, those scenarios? A lot of times we'll use a sealer or something on the back if, if possible to try to help eliminate, eliminate that. But a lot of that's in our finishing process as well. We do a lot of rinsing of the backs of panels just to try to, try to eliminate that, that streaking as best as we possibly can. We do the same. We wash it. We just wash them before we, before we load them. So you've, you've, you know, through the mock-up process and your experience, you kind of know which ones might be a little bit more streaky than others. And then you just do some preventative actions in the plant. Correct. Summarize it a little bit. Yeah. I know I'm not gonna get to all these questions cause they just keep popping up. So keep them coming. I'll do my best to sort, sort through them. So one of the questions was, is have you ever had an architect pull out an old 12 by 12 quote unquote lab sample and expect you to match it? And isn't it difficult or impossible when it is a difficult or impossible request? I'll start with you, Rob. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's definitely happened. So, I mean, it's kind of, you know, that's, that's all part of, of the process of the lab created versus, you know, production run sample that for us, that lab created sample is not going to be what the production run is going to be. So we let them know that the four by four is, is more of the Bible for us. That 12 by 12 is just kind of getting us in the ballpark. I mean, there's a lot of different variations that happen when you're not putting in the add mixtures and everything else. So that's more of a, of a ballpark thing and in the production panel and four by four is what we use to match. Gotcha. You guys kind of do the same thing, kind of look at it as, hey, this is 12 by 12s are just to start, Scott. Yeah. I mean, hopefully you've had an opportunity to have that conversation we talked about earlier about, you know, managing the expectation upfront and you'll just be able to reference back to the conversation you've already had with him. But also, you know, PCI literature is your friend at this point. Yeah. One other thing we've, we've done too here is we'll actually send in a kind of a form with our, with our 12 by 12 stating, stating what these slight variations could be. Just so like you said, upfront and early, we're, we're letting them know that this is just to get us in the ballpark. So there, hopefully there's not those questions down the line, but at least kind of covers us a bit. Here's a question about, have you had resistance in your organization to follow the entire PCI process? For example, making a large mark, mock-up or a production sample when the specs don't call for it? For us, I, we really haven't had too much pushback. I think everybody, everybody in the organization understands the importance of what the mock-ups are and, you know, what the intent is to dial in the mix, get the production techniques down, you know, get in front of any potential potential issues. They're not made just to create extra work just for work sake. So we really don't get too much there. I mean, I guess you'll hear some of the production guys here and there about maybe some of the amount of details we add into some of our four by fours, but I think they, they, they also realize that it's, it's meant as a way to kind of, to help them on the, on the back end of the job as well to, to work out some of the kinks. And like I said, it's not just made for busy work. Yeah, not much at our, at our location, but, you know, when you do get that a little, a little bit of remember when bring people around, how I would handle it. Remember when, okay, I want every, every producer write that down as your notes, make a sign and stick it on top of the, the sales manager's, you know, door above his bathroom because yeah, remember when I think we all have those, those horror stories. So another question that came in and I just lost it. That is a good one. Where did it go? It was at the bottom of my list and then it jumped off. Hopefully nobody deleted a question that I liked. I'll see if I can find here in a minute. Let's just go with this one. Kind of an easy one. What's the most amount of samples or mock-ups you've had to make for a project to satisfy the architect? I'd say for us, it's like 12 by 12 samples. We'd be looking, boy, I'd say probably 15 to 20. Four by four is you're looking at, you know, maybe four or five, something like that. Yeah, I wouldn't even go back for one by one. You get a guy that's picky and then you just have to do them to stop. But mock-ups, I mean, the Ranger Stadium takes the cake. We were over 20 full-size mock-ups. Yeah, I've, I've been there before and I'll, I'll save you guys my story. So here it's, I found a question. Some repairs when dry are not visible, so they are approved, but when it rains, we found that the repair is very visible. How to deal with that? Before I pitch it to you guys, that, that will be one of the topics of our discussion in our workshop number eight in April, where we're talking about remedial actions. But since we have both of you on the call and I love this question, I'll let you guys, you know, put on your site manager and site patchers hat and try to answer that. So to read it again, some repairs when dry are not visible, so they are approved, but when it rains, we found that the repair is very visible. How do you deal with that? Well, I mean, again, PCI literature is pretty clear on this, that it's, it's not to be reviewed in adverse weather. I mean, that nobody's looking up at your building when they're walking in the rain. That sounds like my answer. Yeah, I kind of echo what Scott's saying there. Yep, same. Yeah, I, my, again, I think patching kind of stealing some of our thunder from some of my notes for the, for the future one is, is setting expectations about patching also. Certain mixes, especially ones that were gray based and highly pigmented, we always told the customer we'll, we'll fill out any form that we need to fill out and make an agreement that we will, we'll come back and patch this material once it's fully dried, usually through a, I'm in Ohio, so usually a full summer cycle. So now you're talking middle of August. If the patch still is showing up in the next spring, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll attack it again. Of course, when you're doing a 50 story building versus a four story building, it's a, it's a different animal. But if, again, setting expectations, I always told an architect, I look at his drawings and I would say, I can tell you exactly where our problem panel is going to be. And they go, how can you do that? Well, Nostradamus, of course, because it's going to be the one over the entrance. It's never the one back over behind the trash enclosure where the people go smoke cigarettes. It's going to be the one right over the entrance. And when that happens, you've got this mix, it's going to be severely unforgivable and very difficult to patch. So we, we need to make sure that we do some, some test patches to set that expectation too. So again, remember when I've been to enough of those wars back in the day that that's how I would handle it. But again, everyone's is unique and maybe that's, that's, that's not something that's, that's for everybody. Yeah. And you brought up a good point there. I mean, we do chip off and patch almost, almost every mockup. So they get, they get to see them up front. Got you. So we've got maybe time for one or two more. If you follow the process and the architect has color texture consistency concerns, how do you handle that? I kind of envision this question as being something that, you know, panels are on the job site. You got part of the building installed or the whole building installed. And someone says that didn't match my mockup, or there's too much variation. You're with outside the range that we agreed to, or anything along that lines at that point in time. How do you guys typically handle that? I know there's scenarios in your heads, but I'll start with you, Rob. What, how would you handle something like that? I mean, fortunately for us, we really haven't had with that too much. I mean, now we've had, you know, you have a panel here and there that might be, you know, need a little blending or a little bit of work on site, but nothing that we haven't been able to, our patching crew hasn't been able to, to handle. So fortunately, I guess we really haven't had too many difficult discussions like that. I think a lot of it does go back to, you know, the work we put in on our rain samples and our mockups and getting mixes that we know will work for us and being able to QC the panels on a daily basis to make sure we are getting those consistent finishes day in and day out. Yeah, if it's a panel that is outside the range, I mean, then yeah, you go to work. We've got patch crews that will go out and typically the issue is depth of finish, right? So we'll go out and we'll fix it. Gotcha. Well, last, last question. Any tips regarding matching existing buildings, for example, matching panels on an existing building that may have some age? Well, the first thing is tell them to wash it. You don't want to match dirty precast. And then having a talented, talented QC guy with an eye for color will help you there. Start with, you know, matching the aggregates and work your way into the color of the matrix. Color of the matrix. Yeah, I agree. Same process for us. That's getting your aggregates, your matrix down and then work on work on the color variations there. And those are definitely a lot more challenging when you're doing that. So those are, you know, some of those where you're getting a lot more of the 12 by 12s made just to try to dial things in. But just kind of a trial and error type process at that point. Yep. Well, I thank you both for for doing this. I know it's it's not a lot of time, but it's also not not easy. You guys did a fabulous, fabulous job. So I want to thank both Rob and Scott for for your participation. Look forward to seeing you guys at convention in a couple of weeks. So to kind of finish this up and and do a plug, because that's what we do at PCI. Our next workshop is going to be on March 17th. I probably should have highlighted that in green, but we're going to talk about samples and mockups. Our speakers are going to talk a little bit of deeper dive. Some of the questions you gave today are going to be explored a little bit different, a little bit deeper. We are definitely going to talk about, you know, sample ingredients, you know, tricks and samples. We'll still follow the process and follow PCI manuals, but also give you an opportunity to hear from some other producers on how they handle manufacturing samples and mockups, especially trying to get a consistent mix and finish when maybe an architect is not wanting that specific shade of green. Workshop eight will be more remedial actions. It's going to be more of that site visit. We got panels in the yard. They're definitely an acceptable panel, but they might be needed some touch up. What are the methods? What are the costs? What are the risks? What can we do to prevent those? I think a lot of the things we talked about today falls right into that category. And then the last one is going to be internal and external communication. We are talking to a couple of architects to participate in that. I think this is a very, very critical component as I started the series with or started the today about was about everything. All problems start with sales and what sales needs to be able to do is to be better communicators and setting the table for success. So we'll be talking about, you know, how to talk to architects and our customers early in the process and also how to work with them at the end of the process. So if you have any questions that we didn't get to today, you can email them to me at rwilson at pci.org. We'll answer those. Rob, Scott, myself, or others, we'll send you an answer. It's going to make sure we get all your questions answered that you have on these topics. If you have any other topics that you'd like us to cover, then please let us know. This communication was a big one. Workforce development is also a big one. So those are ones that we want to try to continue into the fall. So if anybody has any other topics that you'd like for us to address, please let us know. And with that, we'll close. Thanks everybody for your attendance. Hopefully this was very valuable. If you have any comments, suggestions, good, bad, or indifferent, go ahead and email me. I'm a big boy. I can take it. So thanks everybody.

architectural precast

acceptability of appearance

workshop session

Nicole Clough

Brad Williams

Rob Bristworm

Scott Davis

samples and mock-ups

customer expectations